p123

Jun 26 2014, 01:11 AM

1) Super Saiyan becomes a measly 2-3x boost. Super Saiyan, which in universe should always be head and shoulders above Kaioken x20 regardless of how AT wrote it, being this weak, just feels flat out wrong. One could argue how Elder Kaioshin said that transformations were the wrong way about doing things, but still, I don't know if it's enough.

p123

Jun 26 2014, 01:11 AM

2) This is literally the only issue that makes the 50x boost unworkable. Every other issue can be explained rather easily and is it really worth destroying all of the in universe logic that Super Saiyan is greatly superior to Kaioken?

• Gero’s absorption estimations
• Vegeta’s claim on the way to the tournament
• Goten/Trunks vs 18

p123

Jun 26 2014, 01:11 AM

3) How do you numerically explain Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre. Does the fusion boost change? How strong did the boys get? Let's say Gotenks got 2-3x stronger, how much stronger are the boys? And how does this effect Gogeta?

Alex ClownBoss

Jun 26 2014, 09:35 AM

Base Gotenks Post:100
SSJ Gotenks Pre: 90
SSJ3 Goku: 85
Base Gotenks pre: 75
SSJ2 Adults: 70

P? You're questioning about your abilities of believing SSJ3 Goku being almost on par with SSJ Gotenks.

Alex ClownBoss

Jun 26 2014, 09:35 AM

Base Gotenks Post:100
SSJ Gotenks Pre: 90
SSJ3 Goku: 85
Base Gotenks pre: 75
SSJ2 Adults: 70

P? You're questioning about your abilities of believing SSJ3 Goku being almost on par with SSJ Gotenks.

Alex ClownBoss

Jun 26 2014, 01:01 PM

İ think the SSJ2 Adults aren't far away from Base Gotenks , unless İ should have Gotenks way weaker.

Vertical

Jun 26 2014, 03:34 AM

p123

Jun 26 2014, 01:11 AM

1) Super Saiyan becomes a measly 2-3x boost. Super Saiyan, which in universe should always be head and shoulders above Kaioken x20 regardless of how AT wrote it, being this weak, just feels flat out wrong. One could argue how Elder Kaioshin said that transformations were the wrong way about doing things, but still, I don't know if it's enough.

It’s not necessary to lower the SSJ multiplier to force Gotenks to fit like that (will elaborate with #3 response).

p123

Jun 26 2014, 01:11 AM

2) This is literally the only issue that makes the 50x boost unworkable. Every other issue can be explained rather easily and is it really worth destroying all of the in universe logic that Super Saiyan is greatly superior to Kaioken?

It’s not the only issue:

• Gero’s absorption estimations
• Vegeta’s claim on the way to the tournament
• Goten/Trunks vs 18

Forcibly bending my interpretation of these events to coincide with a formula that was never mentioned or even implied isn’t desirable.

Also, Kaioken creates problems either way. It was shown that the user’s strength had a direct relationship with how easily usable Kaioken became. No limit was ever mentioned… or likely ever considered. But there must be a reason Goku isn’t running around 1-shotting people with Kaiokenx10,000. If someone can justify that, then someone else can equally justify SSJ falling below x20. There’s an equal amount of conjecture involved.

p123

Jun 26 2014, 01:11 AM

3) How do you numerically explain Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre. Does the fusion boost change? How strong did the boys get? Let's say Gotenks got 2-3x stronger, how much stronger are the boys? And how does this effect Gogeta?

So, here’s a theory I worked on a while ago…

Basically, “distractions” affect the effectiveness of a fusion. Things like injuries, or having to suppress, or being transformed. Anything that forces your mind away from “syncing” with your partner during the dance. They then become a variable within the formula itself.

Something like:
(Lowest Fusion Participant x 2 x Fusion Multiplier) / (Fixed number ^ Distractions)

Obviously, the Fusion Multiplier and the required Fixed Number will depend entirely on your personal placements and applied numbers... and may take a bit of trial and error to work out. But the Distractions are made clear:

[Pre-RoSaT] Base Gotenks
Goten - Nothing
Trunks - Must suppress
Distractions = 1
Resulting in a decent, though incomplete fusion… displayed by it's inability to transform

[Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks
Goten - SSJ stress
Trunks - SSJ stress + must suppress
Distractions = 3
Resulting in a poor, incomplete fusion… unable to transform/regress… and resulting in the smallest (shown) difference between ingredients and final product

[Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks
(For this particular step to, I am forced to make [Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks equals… which isn’t much of a stretch consider Goten had slightly more drive than Trunks and could’ve closed the gap)
Goten - No suppression. No transformation. No injury. 100% focused on the task.
Trunks - No suppression. No transformation. No injury. 100% focused on the task.
Distractions = 0
Resulting in a complete/perfect fusion… with the ability to transform… and the maximum difference between ingredients and final product

Using such a system allowed me to make the gap between [Pre-RoSaT] Base Gotenks and his SSJ self basically whatever I wanted... allowing him to place within the chain as I believed he should... without being bent around a fixed SSJ multiplier. It also allowed me to give Goten/Trunks much smaller gains than Gotenks'.

If this isn't enough information to get you on a path towards your goal.. I may expand/clarify when I'm home from work.

Super Saiyan

Jun 26 2014, 01:28 PM

Alex ClownBoss

Jun 26 2014, 01:01 PM

İ think the SSJ2 Adults aren't far away from Base Gotenks , unless İ should have Gotenks way weaker.

I'm saying your numbers make no sense. The SSJ 3 multiplier is at least 4x as given to us by SEG. You have the SSJ 3 multiplier being someone like 1.2x. Base Gotenks pre shouldn't even be close to Fat Boo anyways.